This may be long so please bear with me cause my daughter really needs the help...

My daughter, Stephanie, is 36 (this is the only time I really feel my age. lol) and an accomplished rider currently eventing.  Her trainer is a former International level eventer and really knows her stuff.  When Steph was looking for her own horse, Alix found a 7 y/o 1/4 QH, 3/4 TB who raced as a QH.  He then went to an owner with NO experience with OT racehorses, who really fried his brain.  When she couldn't ride him (he was too fast! DUH!) she just threw him out for anyone at her show barn to have a shot at.  She finally put him up for sale at a show in Kansas and Alix brought him back to St Louis for a two week trial.  It was a close thing but Killian has soooo much potential and is a great horse in so many ways that Steph decided to go with him.  He is absolutely fearless when jumping and has incredible height and scope, plus heart, and is amazingly elegant and correct in Dressage.  And he is a wonderfully kind and gentle horse.  They are looking at him as a possible Rolex horse.  BUT... (you knew that was coming, didn't you?)

He has had a SERIOUS problem with accepting contact and responding to aids.  His first dressage show at a mini event was hilarious, in a bad way.  The judge's card contained the word 'bolt" 3 times.  Now, he didn't actually bolt and he finished the test, but you get the picture that he was not under control.

He has been improving over the past year, somewhat unpredictable, but getting better to the point they were going to take him to KY Horse Park for the Training level event this summer.  Then, on another horse, my daughter did a bailout and broke her leg.

Killian HATES Alix and does not improve when she rides him. There is only one other girl at the barn not afraid of him and she's away at college. So while the leg was healing, Killian reverted to his monster mode, so that when Steph started back on him it was almost like starting over.

Now, the kicker - Steph just had to have back surgery on a ruptured disc (L5 - yep all that jerking around is taking its toll) So she won't be able to ride for another 8 weeks and then she's going to come back to this horse who is just going to rip at her back some more, both are out of shape and he's is again out of control.

Sooooo... the finale.  The main problem is that Killian tries to literally jerk and pull the rider out of the saddle, violently.  Steph has been able to work with this in the past (I mentioned she is an accomplished horsewoman) but with the back issue where's no way that can continue.  I know she does not want to have to sell him even though she could probably make quite a bit from the $5000 she paid for him... we all know how we love our ornery critters.

How do you encourage this guy to accept contact, quit throwing these tantrums, etc?  Without having to go through the jerking and pulling?

Here's a pic during the two week trial period.  He looks good, but you can tell there are problems cause my DD looks pretty tense.

Is he fighting the bit or fighting control for his head. Is he being worked during your daughter's down time? Side reins and a surcingle? Have you tried a bitless bridle to determine if it is the bit or the pressure he's fighting? At play where is his natural head carriage? Just thoughts....

Sorry I don't have any specific advice for how to solve the issue. Your daughter is FAR beyond my skill level :)

Her trainer would have no problem with someone else working the "beast".  She is a really good trainer and extremely nice person (and a hoot to boot! lol!) and jokes all the time about the way she and Killian DON'T get along.  Does anybody know of a good trainer who works with troubled horses in the St Louis area?  We'll ask around, but if there is somebody ya'll have worked with and can recommend...

dbbear, WOW! good, precise ????s to which I will have to get answers!  I haven't spoken with Steph that specifically about his behavior.  Thanks!

Wow, this turned out long too! 

Boy do I know where you're coming from. It has been 9 years that I've had my Star, a TB who seems to fit Killian's description to a "T." So much so that I have had 27 different trainers, (three of which have actually been able to ride him successfully) and an offer to come back to a dressage clinic the next day when the clinician would provide the horse free of charge

What finally helped my horse and I was to stop trying to train for competition, and just enjoy riding. I had to forget about accepting contact, going for the 4'6" mini prix's championships, I had to forget about riding above 4th level, I had to forget everything that my very experienced and very well intentioned instructors/trainers taught me and I had to just start riding.

We had to learn to trust each other. I knew that I could point him at anything, anytime, and he would simply go over or get through it safely, no matter what. He knew that I would stay on. But that wasn't the kind of trust he or I needed. We needed to know that when everything started to go wrong, when I or he fell, when a pole was knocked, when we were in a new place, when we were schooling jumping or when we were schooling dressage, that I would be able to be consistent in my aids, and that he would be consistent in his responses. It was an amazing change when I simply was able to look at his behavior and my riding as simply a matter of troubleshooting, I started to be able to not even need to take a deep breath when he did something "wrong" because I knew that it was a direct result of something in what I asked him, or in his immediate surroundings. He did start taking deep breaths and he started to relax even when he "misbehaved" (he was a horse that would punish himself when he thought he had something wrong).

I rode him in a halter and hackamore and then in a bridle with a set of reins attached to the noseband, that helped a TON. While riding in a halter, we worked on learning to engage his hind end and go and slow from my seat. I know that I never knew I had a problem with our seat connection, I had ridden him many times without reins and/or bridle and I knew that I could stop. But I discovered more subtle ways to stop, ways where I just dropped my energy and so did he.

Once we had a better agreement about "impulsion" (he was usually quite explosive), he was already using himself way more correctly. He had always come from behind, he wore his hind shoes out in half the time as his fronts (still does at 21). But now he was starting to come from behind and lift through his back naturally. He was balancing better, staying over his hocks more (even though one is totally arthritic), and his head was starting to relax at the poll. He stopped jerking on my hands, stopped sucking behind the bit, and was giving me a place to sit almost all of the time.

Then... I tore just about every muscle in the right side of my abdomen. I was banned from riding by my doctor "until later approval" well, it was winter, and a cold one at that, so I didn't ride for six months. Then I was in varsity sports in high school, had AP classes, and was very busy working for a trainer. Basically I pulled Star out and showed him and never did any riding in between shows. We lost almost all of our connection.

So five years later, I pull him back out of the pasture, and tell him he's coming out of retirement. Boy did he fight. He jerked, bucked, kicked, reared, backed up frantically, and spun tight circles constantly. Everything stopped within a couple of months except the jerking.

What I have done to stop the jerking is I rode him with nothing to jerk on. I rode him with no contact, worked on lots of transitions within the gaits, and did lots and lots of circles off of leg only. I got him to be really supple through leg yielding and half pass, I made sure I could move his shoulder or hindend at any time, as far as I wanted, with just my legs and seat. When I had total influence over his body with just my legs and seat, I then started to ask him to come into the contact.

The way I teach horses to come into contact is deeply rooted in my western background. I ask the horse to move forward (at the trot) on a nearly loose rein (just enough to feel the mouth, but not really asking or holding a contact) and then ask them to yield their hind quarters with my legs. I do this side to side, fairly slowly with 2-4 strides in between yields until the horse relaxes and lifts his back, or makes an attempt to carry himself. I then ask the horse to move straight forward and praise through pets and voice. After a few times, the carrying of himself carries into the straight part, and I really praise the horse. When the horse understands that leg means lateral and lift, I then start to teach that the hand means vertical and soft (remember that spur is for lateral and whip for forward). I ask the horse to give his head from side to side, really taking a lot of time and moving in slow motion so that at the very first attempt I can reward. As the horse becomes super soft from side to side, I start to introduce the concept of when the horse goes from left to right, that he should keep his head low by putting slight pressure on both reins and I change side. When the horse can change flexions with his head low, I then ask for him to be soft vertically by lifting both reins at the same time and holding, waiting for him to give. I keep asking for more and more suppleness (by doing yielding with asking for a lateral flexion with my hands), eventually, I want the horse to be so soft that I just put a little bit of inside leg on and the horse is bent all the way around and his nose comes toward my knee, this is just to teach them to accept contact.

So when those foundational steps are all laid out, you can put it all together to get consistent contact. Again, ask the horse to move forward at the trot, then ask for side to side softness, be slow and gentle, wait for the horse. When the horse is warmed up and loose, go onto a 20 m circle and ask for softness to the inside, apply the inside leg, and hold with the outside rein to contain the shoulder, the haunches should move towards the outside, stepping further under himself, his shoulder should stand up (if you have enough forward) and the horse will come into the contact with a loose back, making it very hard to resist. Ask for that contact for a single part of a stride and slowly but surely build up to the point where you can ask the horse to come into the contact and he will for an entire circle or even two (don't rush into it, make sure there is a consistent and steady rhythm, if there has to be two circles between the strides of softness then that's what has to be done, maintain the relaxation). Once he is soft and into the contact on the circle on both sides, you can carry it over onto a straight line.

This seems like a slow process but in retrospect, this is what I should have done with my horse the first time I started riding him. What initially took three years took seven rides to achieve again. I have a little TB mare that tried to kill people when they asked for contact, in three rides she understood softness and accepted the contact completely just doing this, focusing on her, and feeling the right moment of relaxation to quit.

 Also, I've rode quite a bit of rank stock in my day - so a little trick, keep one hand up and out when starting out, it will make it so that the horse can't jerk as hard and will have to move his hindquarters in a circle.

Thanks Katie for taking the time to give a detailed plan of action!  I will definitely pass this along to Steph.  Sometimes it's hard to back away from the fight and let everyone figure out an easier way.  This sounds doable.

You don't live anywhere close to St Louis, do you?? lol

I forgot to say that I was terrified for my life the first couple of weeks - I had to keep reminding myself that I was in an arena so he couldn't run away and that he wasn't going to kill me, all I had to do was stay on (lots of two point and posting) and he'd eventually slow down and stop. :)

I don't live anywhere near St. Louis, I'm in MT right now (SW corner). But hey, the really good trainer that planted the seed for the action I finally took was a reining trainer from Spokane - he might be up for a road trip! LOL ;)

First, what a beauty! My first gut instinct is pain of some sort. Have you had him thoroughly checked? Maybe a chiropractor. ? Other than that, I'd find a trainer that is willing to ride him. Also, with the medical issues your daughter has had lately, maybe looking at selling him or finding a higher level rider that would be willing to show him. Just some thoughts. Good luck.  

povertybyhorse:

He has had a SERIOUS problem with accepting contact and responding to aids.  His first dressage show at a mini event was hilarious, in a bad way.  The judge's card contained the word 'bolt" 3 times.  Now, he didn't actually bolt and he finished the test, but you get the picture that he was not under control.

He has been improving over the past year, somewhat unpredictable, but getting better to the point they were going to take him to KY Horse Park for the Training level event this summer.  Then, on another horse, my daughter did a bailout and broke her leg.

Killian HATES Alix and does not improve when she rides him. There is only one other girl at the barn not afraid of him and she's away at college. So while the leg was healing, Killian reverted to his monster mode, so that when Steph started back on him it was almost like starting over.

Sooooo... the finale.  The main problem is that Killian tries to literally jerk and pull the rider out of the saddle, violently.  Steph has been able to work with this in the past (I mentioned she is an accomplished horsewoman) but with the back issue where's no way that can continue.  I know she does not want to have to sell him even though she could probably make quite a bit from the $5000 she paid for him... we all know how we love our ornery critters.

How do you encourage this guy to accept contact, quit throwing these tantrums, etc?  Without having to go through the jerking and pulling?.

Well, I'm certainly not an accomplished eventer (LOL) but would offer that there is problem with the horse accepting rider authority and responding to the aids.  I am a big believer of building authority in the round pen, with ground work.  It is safer for the handler, and you can push the horse until he sweats or take him down if he gets extremely aggressive and strikes out or attacks.  A high-energy, high-motor, bold, talented horse sometimes needs to work out authority and trust issues in a bigger way than a meeker, milder horse.  I've worked extensively with my horses in the round pen, and it builds a solid relationship.  You can also do this on a lunge line, but it is very hard to keep up with the line and the energy of an OTTB.  I prefer the round pen where I can focus intensively just on the horse and not keeping up with the line, in case they come off the rail or strike out. 

David and Karen O'Connor have a set of tapes out from the ground pen work to jumping cross country, and they explain how to start building the authority with controlling first the direction and then the speed in the round pen, and they continue that through flat work and then jumping.  If you have never done round pen work, the tapes are a good place to start in learning to build authority.

I've found that working in the round pen lets me really learn about my horse, his strengths, weaknesses and quirks.  Katie brought up some excellent points about consistency in handling and troubleshooting; that is exactly what I do in my ground work.  I'm consistent in how I ask.  The thing about working with high energy performance horses is that we tend to want to control them too much, and in the round pen, you can "allow" the horse to come to you, meaning you enable performance.  You maintain authority, but authority is softer than rigid control.  After a while, as the horse learns to "give" to you, he will respond to changes in your body language, energy level, and eventually just a shift in your mental focus. 

I see this as a training issue rather than a riding issue.  The horse not responding to aids and jerking the rider in my opinion is not a "finished" horse.  My recommendation is building the trust and authority first, then the softer response to the consistent aids of a rider will come with time.  I see this frequently in performance horses; riders have too much horse and they don't know how to build authority if someone hasn't already built it in the horse's mindset.

Oddly enough, once the horse realizes that you can push him to run or take him down if he is aggressive--but that you choose not to, he develops a new respect.  I don't know why it works, it just does.  But you cannot be angry when you do it, just forceful.  You are disciplining, and after the horse completes whatever you made him do, you need to reward him.  Emotional consistency in the handler will go a long way toward building authority with the horse.

I love it when someone understands the beauty and true nature of round pen work as you obviously do!

I am always afraid to suggest it as I have seen too many people just chase horses, making the horse more fit, and doing nothing more than teaching tricks to horses and their owners (the horse figures out to keep itself from getting ran it just needs to charge, or turn and look cute).

But yes, TMN you are totally correct in saying it's not a riding issue, it's a training issue, and that respect and confidence (boy, I think I sound like some trainer that starts with a "P" right now, shucks) need to be gained first on the ground. And the bond that a person can have a round pen facilitate is amazing.

Chivalry's_Mom:

First, what a beauty! My first gut instinct is pain of some sort. Have you had him thoroughly checked? Maybe a chiropractor. ?

Ditto...  I'm assuming all pain or medical related problems have been ruled out?  This should be looked into first before assuming it's a behavioral problem.  I would look into everything, dental, chiro, massage, saddle fit...etc.

Thanks, CM.  I'm prejudiced but I think they're both beautiful! lol.  After her first horse, my Bandido, turned up with a misdiagnosed broken humerus after almost 2 years of pouring $$$ down the drain, this guy has been gone over with a fine toothed curry comb (ha!ha!).  As far as anyone can tell, he's healthy, sound, and as painfree as any of us get. 

It's pretty certain that it's a training (or should I say, REtraining) issue;  there have been some really interesting ideas here on how to work with him in different ways...  THANKS everyone!! ... that we'll be trying out.  He's such a sweetheart in so many ways; and when he's jumping or CC he takes care of her, saves her from some interesting and potentially serious situations. 

Great insights, HRSEPLA, and very well written.  It is incredibly valuable to give someone insights into a horse's previous experience to give them a basis for how to approach their work.  I really liked your writeup on the horses' experience at the track and why they are the way they are.  It should be published formally, since so many people struggle with this problem.

 I would love to hear more from both you and Katie...