Hey ya'll.  I need some suggestions about a horse I have in training.

Background on mare: 4 yr old Paint mare, raised by owner and treated like a pet - very spoiled.  They brought her to me because they said she had started bucking and throwing herself down when ridden.  She was trained by her owner and I was told that he had ridden her 3 times before she began bucking with no problem (the kids had even been on her back while she was ponied).  She has perfect ground manners.  I worked her in the roundpen for the first few days to get to know her and gain some respect and to watch out for lameness.  She showed that she has a temper and does not like to work. (Kicked at me and snaked her neck when asked to work longer than she wanted).  She came around pretty quick and really tuned into me.  I thought this was going to be easy until I put the saddle on her.  Her beautiful soft eye instantly turned to stone when I put the saddle on her back.  She immediately began to buck but I was able to pull her around easily.  I checked for saddle fit, girth tightness, and saddle pad bunching - all okay.  I then sent her around the roundpen and she walked fine, trotted a few steps and started to lunge/buck.  I pushed her through the buck into a lope and made her really work. I figured that it was just her temper and laziness causing her to buck.  We did this daily for several days and she always bucked.  I changed saddles to a heavier saddle with back cinch, and she seemed to prefer it. (no bucking at the walk, trot, scotched at the lope).  All this is without me in the saddle - just lunging.  When I work her loose she bucks, but when I am lunging her and asking her for turns, backs, rollbacks - no bucking and a wonderful soft eye.  After no real progress after a week, I called the owner to get more information - turns out that all the rides were on the same day.  Ride 1 - roundpen walk/trot/lope; Ride 2 - cattle lots walk/trot/lope; Ride 3 - rodeo arena walk/trot/lope, snapped bull whip mounted, swung a rope mounted, Ride 4 - several hours and a trailer ride later, in roundpen owner mounted and the horse took off and threw herself, remounted she began bucking and bucked owner off, remounted again bucked again threw owner again he put her up.

So this is my thoughts -

1  Owner is a large man and mare is small (15 hands). Back problem due to overwork first day.  Checked back out throughly and no problems

2  Overwork coupled with spoiled temperment caused the mare to buck initially and was reinforced when rewarded by being put up.

She is a smart horse and has fooled me into thinking it was a fear response, but I now know she was playing me.  I think it is mainly #2, but after several weeks with no change in mounted behaviour, I am at a loss.  She will be a great mare if I can get her over her temper and spoiled nature.  Any suggestions?

Poor you, no replies yet.  I was waiting to see what others might suggest and I wish I had some good advice.  The only other thing I can think of is that the initial rides did not go well, or caused her some pain and she associates the saddle with the experience.  In which case, time and consistancy may over come it.  I hope things improve!

I am in NO WAY a professional trainer, but here are some thoughts I had after reading your post.

Even though you checked for saddle fit, it still sounds like there might be a pain issue, since you said you switched saddles and that improved her attitude. It may be that the heavier saddle distributed the weight differently and lessened the pain, but that there is something there. I don't really know how to tell you to find out about that. I know a vet could probably help, but I also understand about vet bills, and not really wanting to go there.

It does sound like the mare has a bad attitude. Have you thought about trying something different with her? I am thinking working her in harness a bit. It would reinforce your ground work, but there is no saddle involved, so if there is a lingering pain issue, the harness should take that out of the equation. It would be something new to her, might require her to think and pay attention, instead of planning her next blow-up. I personally think that every horse should spend a little time under harness: does no harm and can do so much good, especially getting them used to straps everywhere (under the tail!!) and wound around their feet, etc., and also helps with the transition to riding. Even though this mare has already been ridden, a step back into harness might be beneficial. If you have snow, once you get her going with the ground driving, hook her up to a bale of hay or straw and drive her through the deep snow - if she spooks or tries to run, she'll wear out pretty quick.

Hope you can take my thoughts and come up with something to do with her. Like I said, I am no professional  trainer, although I have trained several horses for my own use, including adopted mustangs. Good luck with her.

Smart, cold-backed, and no work ethic?  This will be an uphill battle for you, and in all likeliness, this will be a recurring issue for anyone else who rides her.  A smart horse knows who's riding and will test each new person who climbs on. 

While I'm a firm believer in groundwork, this is one issue that you'll have to tackle when you're on her.  Have you ridden many buckers?

Hoo-boy, Colty! You've got a real handful there. But you explained the problem(s) in much appreciated detail. Most disconcerting is the pitching herself down with a rider. Of course you know rolling on a rider is probably next. Once that starts, the horse is usually declared dangerous and lost for any useful purpose other than possible rodeo stock. I'm not one to quickly write off such a young horse. And it sounds like you aren't either. But be VERY careful and honest with yourself, your abilities and a true assessment of what danger this horse represents if you continue to try and work it out.

Based upon your chronicling the apparent history of this 4 year old, I'm guessing she was traumatized by not being started correctly; probably ground-handled to death and developed some trust but had it all blown suddenly away with being saddled, ridden and exposed to all kinds of scary things all in one day, until she reached the detonation point you described. Having succeeded in shedding her rider and being put up taught her the only real thing she has learned. The only course of action I can recommend is to totally re-start this mare. Getting her back under saddle will probably take two or three times longer than normal now though.

If you choose to proceed with rehabilitation, I'd get rid of the western saddle and go to a light English, Aussie or endurance saddle; anything WITHOUT a chest-penetrating saddle horn! Take days or even weeks to start brief side-mount and dismount lessons with someone in control of her head at all times until she takes mounting calmly. Then more brief lessons just sitting for a few seconds and dismount. Then work up to walking a few steps and dismount. The confidence rebuilding will take a long time. She has to learn that cattle, bull whips and god-knows-what-else the owners exposed her to are NOT part of her riding experience... yet. And keep a reliable assistant at the other end of the longe to control that head. I wouldn't even think of going to the trot until she is totally comfortable and reliable at the walk. When you do move up to accelerated gaits, limit them to just a few steps, stop and reward. And definitely WHOA anytime you anticipate she's approaching panic mode. She'll need lots of praise and reward. And always remember to stop before you ask too much.

The mare should also be mouthed, bitted and worked on long lines before you move to getting her under saddle again. Cover all the same bases you would as with starting a completely green horse.

Again, be VERY careful here Colty. I think you're working with a horse that is teetering on the brink of being lost because of a bad start. Pulling her back from the edge of disaster will be a total test of your patience and training skills. And keep your personal safety ABOVE your desire to recover this horse. The sad truth is that we cannot save them all. Knowing which ones to walk away from is hard to learn and never easy to do. Good luck! ~FH

Ya' know, it's late and I have Super Bowl burn-out. But I just re-read your post Colty. The part about the rides all occuring on the same day just hit me like a ton of bricks.

ColtysHeart:

Ride 1 - roundpen walk/trot/lope; Ride 2 - cattle lots walk/trot/lope; Ride 3 - rodeo arena walk/trot/lope, snapped bull whip mounted, swung a rope mounted, Ride 4 - several hours and a trailer ride later, in roundpen owner mounted and the horse took off and threw herself, remounted she began bucking and bucked owner off, remounted again bucked again threw owner again he put her up.

A cattle lot? A rodeo arena? Bull whips and roping lariats? A trailer ride followed by a DISASTEROUS round pen ride?

It sounds like this horse was used by some nameless trainer to DEMONSTRATE taking a green horse to a rideable mount in just a few hours! And the owners BELIEVED they had a finished horse from the experience! Absolutely no follow-up! Jeezus H ....! I've done that myself dozens of times... but FOR DEMONSTRATION PURPOSES ONLY!!!! You don't just hand the horse back to the owners and say "Here! Happy Trails!" Without a meaningful and regimented foundation training program for that horse AFTER the demonstration, it's a 1000 pound time bomb!

Sorry I missed that the first time around, Colty. She's a GREEN HORSE with a bad experience lodged in her head. Still dangerous at this point. But I'll bet the ranch that's what happened to her. ~FH

Thanks for the suggestions!  The previous trainer is the owner.  He is being very patient with me about bringing the horse along slowly.  She stone bruised on me Friday, so this week she will have most of it off.  She is already not liking the lack of attention and exercise.  She has really began to look forward to our daily workouts.  I feel that there is hope, she wasn't really physically traumatized or mentally fried, I am hoping patience will prevail.  I again had her back checked out with no probelms.  I think she like the heavier saddle because the lighter saddle did not have a back cinch and would pop on her back when she moved.  The heavier saddle does not. I have long lined her a bunch and she is very light in the mouth and very sensitive sided.  Anyway, I'll keep you guys updated.  And yes I have ridden several buckers, but at my age I do everything I can to prevent that!  I don't bounce anymore!  With her temper, if I just mount up it will be a heck of a fight and it's not the bucking I'm worried about - it's the throwing herself down and possibly flipping.

"And yes I have ridden several buckers, but at my age I do everything I can to prevent that! I don't bounce anymore!"

 LOL--ME TOO!  I prefer to send my 2 and 3-yr-olds out for the first few rides.  Someone else can hit the ground :P

 "With her temper, if I just mount up it will be a heck of a fight and it's not the bucking I'm worried about - it's the throwing herself down and possibly flipping."

 At least you're aware of her behavior.  Just be careful and safe--we don't want to hear about you ending up in the hospital!

I know many people have a negative view of Natural Horsemanship, but I've found several of the ideas from it quite useful. According to the "horseanality" you've described this mare sounds like a strong left brain extrovert. These horses are "naughty" and "playful". These horses have a great play drive and "just want to have fun". The word "job" or "work" are the enemies of this kind of horse. You describe her as acting out during regular lunging and as a calm and happy horse when you constantly changing it up. My advise is keep changing it up. This type of horse can handle lots of new things, they are very smart. Try not to be overly repeatitive, try to be interesting and make training this mare a game. I'd love to elaborate if you'd like. Also check out the problem solving link on Parrelli.com (very useful). Also check out MontyRoberts.com.

The mares hoof is better and I started to work her lightly this weekend.  Not getting worked and watching the other horses get worked really did a number on her.  She seemed willing to do anything for me no matter how many times I asked (she really showed a good work ethic).  I believe she has really developed a trust in me finally.  I have spoken to the owner and stressed that this mare will not be a kid horse for a VERY long time.  He may be trading her to my farrier which I feel will be a better situation for her.  She is a great little horse (very bright, strikingly pretty, and now that she trusts me very willing).  She is the type of horse that is so soft and light sided that with diligence and continued training she could work strictly off leg cues. (I love that kind!)  I only wish my Colty was so light.  If you can't tell - I am a hopeless optimist when it comes to horses.

Now a little off the subject -   Does anyone ride every horse with spurs?  I never ride with spurs because when I was younger in college I thought I had to and I always seemed to jab at the wrong time or in the wrong place.  I gave up and work and train strictly off leg pressure.  Lately, I seem to be getting horses that the owner says is bucking or acting up and when I quiz them on the circumstances of the misbehavior is centers around spurs.  Most of them look at me like I am crazy when I try to save them training fees and tell them to take the spurs off.  Instead they want me to desensitize the horse somewhat to the spurs.  Am I in the minority is feeling that a sensitive horse that responds to bare heels is fantastically better than a spur trained horse?  By the way I send those owners on their way.

Starlette is spur trained, and she hates spurs! Bucks like crazy...of course, she was rushed in her training, and this is her response to it. I personally think spurs are the final aide for fine tuning...depending on what you want to do. WP classes seem to depend on them to give the impression of not cueing at all; I also noticed that a lot of dressage uses them (different types) too.  My goals with Starlette is to "de-spur train" her...I am actually starting her from the beginning, getting her to respond with leg pressure only.

It sounds like getting her traded with the farrier would be a better deal for the horse!  By the sound of her ordeal, her current owner needs a big bonk on the head (much like the V8 commercials-lol).

As far as spurs, I don't use them on a green horse or a new-to-me horse.  Those are reserved for horses that are getting a little dead-sided **or** we've progressed far enough in training that they are useful tools. 

I'm with Robison02 about being selective with using spurs. I do a thorough investigation about how responsive the horse is to moving away from pressure fore and aft on the ground first. If they are unresponsive, I work from the ground until they understand what I'm asking for and may introduce them to the spur there, too if they don't get the message from a thumb or knuckle. Groundwork or mounted, I ask politely first with thumb or leg. If they give me a ho-hum response I press with the spur. PRESS. Not jab! Some people also call that harpooning and it causes the horse to become afraid of the spur, resulting in kicking or bucking. Extremely dead-sided mounts that ignore a press with the spur then get it rolled up their side a couple of times. But never jabbed or harpooned. I ASK with the leg and INSIST with the spur. Once the horse knows that spur will come if they ignore the initial request, they get much lighter and responsive to the original cue.

I have no problem with the judicious and PROPER use of spurs by trainers and experienced horsemen/horsewomen. But I believe their use should be restricted to horses that need an occasional reminder about response times and not worn to punish the horse or as an accessory to an outfit. ~FH

Florida Horseman:

Ya' know, it's late and I have Super Bowl burn-out. But I just re-read your post Colty. The part about the rides all occuring on the same day just hit me like a ton of bricks.

....

A cattle lot? A rodeo arena? Bull whips and roping lariats? A trailer ride followed by a DISASTEROUS round pen ride?

It sounds like this horse was used by some nameless trainer to DEMONSTRATE taking a green horse to a rideable mount in just a few hours! And the owners BELIEVED they had a finished horse from the experience! Absolutely no follow-up!  ....! I've done that myself dozens of times... but FOR DEMONSTRATION PURPOSES ONLY!!!! You don't just hand the horse back to the owners and say "Here! Happy Trails!" Without a meaningful and regimented foundation training program for that horse AFTER the demonstration, it's a 1000 pound time bomb!

LOL, FH.  I was wondering about that myself.  Sounds like they were doing their own "Road to the Horse" contest.