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Injecting Hocks?

Last post 07-04-2008 6:15 AM by Wolfy&Victor. 12 replies.
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  • 07-02-2008 6:25 AM

    Injecting Hocks?

     

    Hi everyone.

    I had a horse trials on the weekend and the dressage judge said my horse had stiff hocks and he was cross cantering, I had a lesson last night, didn't mention the stiff hocks to my instructor. She rode him aswell as me and he again was cross cantering and said he looked stiff in his hocks. She suggested taking him to a vet for flexion testing and see what the vet says about injecting his hocks. Any advice, good or bad about this? I don't know much about it. Instructor said it was like a car running on water instead of oil.

    Thanks in advance for the help!

    Wolfy&Victor


    "No Hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle"- Winston Churchhill
  • 07-02-2008 6:53 AM In reply to

    Re: Injecting Hocks?

    Interesting, I just had my older horses left hock injected yesterday because it was stiff. At the Equine Clinic that I took him to they did radiographs and a lameness exam before we came to the decision to inject.  He is 18 yrs. old.  He said I may decide to do the right one later, but we chose not to do it right now, as he is showing no signs of stiffness in his right.  We also put him on Cosequin ASU (which is available only thru a vet).  The Cosequin could work in time, but because he is my main horse I chose to do the injections b/c it works more quickly.  The only thing bad, really, was the shock of the bill, but it's worth it......I would do radiographs first to see if there is a definite need to inject....jmo

  • 07-02-2008 7:57 AM In reply to

    Re: Injecting Hocks?

    Thank you, That is what is scary is that he is only 9, but my instructor said she has been injecting her horse yearly since he was five, and she only does dressage, so probably more pressure on his joints. I have made a vet appointment for next week, so will see what he has to say. The vet scares me, dreading finding something more that what we think.

    Wolfy&Victor


    "No Hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle"- Winston Churchhill
  • 07-02-2008 8:07 AM In reply to

    Re: Injecting Hocks?

    Here's my take on the hock injecting issue:

    1) First and foremost take the time and the energy to figure out what exactly is causing the issue and decide the best course of treatment based on that diagnosis.

    2) Find a smart, level headed vet that will honestly discuss pros and cons of treatments with you and listen to them, not your trainer or a judge (I find far too many people that jump to "INJECT" just as soon as a horse missteps, and the farther you get from that and closer to a reasoned scientific explanation of why this horse needs to be injected the better.  For instance my trainer nagged me to have hocks injected for 6 months or more for what turned out to be a hoof issue! See 1.)

    3) Discuss other options with your vet and try them if necessary given diagnosis.  For instance IV or IM Legend or Adequine (or now the generics thereof) work wonders in conjunction with a good feed through and do not require injection into the joint capsule and thus don't have any of those risks or long-term issues.

    Joint injections work and can be a good option.  I prefer to leave them as more a "last ditch" sort of treatment as they are 1) one of if not the most powerful treatment available for joint issues and I want to save that for when I really need it rather than using it when an IM treatment would have been just as effective and 2) not without risk from the proceedure itself (small risk of infection in the joint capsule which is nasty to say the least and I've seen horses have to be put down because of it (not related to injections)) and 3) carries problems associated with longterm use (every time you inject you damage the joint capsule, so you are creating new problems and new potential for pain, which after years of repeated injection catches up with you).

    These are acceptable risks to me if I know exactly what I'm treating, I've perhaps tried other treatments, and this is appropriate for treating what my horse has.  It's not acceptable to me, personally, if I don't know what I'm treating or I'm looking for a preventative solution (people start injecting hocks at 2yrs old to "prevent" problems, makes me sick personally.)
  • 07-02-2008 9:50 AM In reply to

    Re: Injecting Hocks?

    Thank you, this is exactly the kind of advice I am looking for. I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA about joint injections, which is why I posed the questions. I was thinking anything to do with injecting couldn't be a good thing!!!

    I am going to take the horse to the vet next week and have a good long chat with him, especially once he has assessed him. I don't want to just jump into joint injections just because it maybe the 'in' thing to do. I am not even going to mention injections when I go up there and see what he has to say.

    My instructor mentioned IV and IM stuff but again I don't know anything about them!! again will wait to hear what the vet says.

    I don't want to do something as a preventation thing either. I also think that the risks would be acceptable with whatever treatment he needs, at least I will have tried, if god forbid if one of those risks occurred.

    Sounds like you know all about the vet stuff, what kind of things should the vet be doing? flexion tests etc??

     

    Wolfy&Victor


    "No Hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle"- Winston Churchhill
  • 07-02-2008 10:25 AM In reply to

    Re: Injecting Hocks?

    Luckily I don't have too much experience dealing with this and I've never done intra-joint injections myself.

    From my experiences I'd expect the vet to start with a basic lameness exam...flex tests to try to pinpoint the area (what looks like hocks may be stifle, hip, or well apparently even hooves as I found out!).

    If the vet has one they may pull out the thermal camera and ask you to work the horse for 15-20min.  They can then view the heat generated by the horse and "hot spots" are indicative of pain.  Pretty cool technique actually and probably less expensive than running full sets of x-rays, etc. ;)

    If you find (or don't find) something then the vet will likely suggest further diagnostic options and/or treatment options (x-rays, the like) and go from there.  Finding pain tells you where it is, not what it is.  Where it is may be enough to guess at what it is and try a treatment; it wouldn't be enough for me to go to intra-joint injections though, personally.

    I've used the IM Legend once before and the stuff works.  Even my horse that didn't have joint issues, was off because of poor farrier work and hoof issues, moved better afterwards.  I think they claim it lasts 2 weeks or something, which means it gets really darn expensive if you intend on injecting that often, but from what I've heard and experienced it works (to some effectiveness) much much longer than that for most horses when coupled with a good feed through.  I think an average is every few months (depending on the horse) and maybe a boost before a strenuous event or big show where you want them to be at their best.

    I think intra-joint injections are about the same with 6months to a year being the time scale that pops out of the back of my brain (could be wrong).  Certainly the risk of infection is low when performed correctly and I haven't seen a case of infection or heard of one other than internet horror stories actually.  I wouldn't be too concerned with it if that's the treatment that's required, but one step at a time.  The long term build up of scar tissue (and other abnormalities) from injections is more what scares me, especially in younger horses, and those without real issues yet.

    There's also the possibility that it's better to do nothing and let the hocks fuse depending on what it is, but it doesn't sound that serious to me at this point.  Just bringing it up to note that throwing a bunch of suppliments at it isn't always the best course.

    If you aren't against Chiropractors and there is a good one in your area you can also consider that after your vet has seen the horse.  You might even discuss with your vet (hopefully they have an open mind; if they dismiss it out of hand and won't give you a reasonable discussion of it then ignore them) to see if there's reason to believe it will help the problem (or at least not hurt).  I've had good luck with Chiros as well for issues that ended up being higher up (back/hips) and hard to treat otherwise; I'm not sure what a Chiro could do with a hock problem, maybe nothing.
  • 07-02-2008 11:51 AM In reply to

    Re: Injecting Hocks?

    Yes, check it out thoroughly before you do use hock injections, but if you determine they could help, I would proceed. The average horse is fine without, but dressage is not the same as an every day hack. I do more western sport horses than the english set, but the barrel racers and polo ponies that get hock injections do well on them. It's one of those things that I wouldn't normally recommend just because I lean towards "all natural" but...some horses are going beyond "natural" to perform and their bodies take a toll. It's just something that you can do to keep them performing and healthy in the long haul.

     If you want to compare to a vehicle, then  compare to a truck that pulls trailers. It's DESIGNED for it, but it still is harder on it than running without a load. It may take more maitenence to keep it going, but you just do the maitenence and use it like it was meant to be.  If you don't, it won't pull the load.

     

    Barefoot and Loving it!

    http://www.barefoothooves.net

  • 07-02-2008 7:14 PM In reply to

    Re: Injecting Hocks?

    oh my goshh it is so worth the money! Just make sure you have a good vet who is well qualified. Some vets cannot hit the joints as precisely therefore it isn't as effective. They inject some sort of acid or steriod to lubricate them better. But if you watch when they do, they let whatever was lubricating drip out. If your horses hocks are really bad a clear watery liquid will drip out from the needle, if his hocks are really bad some blood might come out. In a perfect world this liquid dripping out should be like sort of thick and yellowish i believe. It will make a world of difference for your horse!

    Addie,
    Lover of Ponies.
    Owner of a Fabulous Argentine Warmblood.


  • 07-03-2008 5:49 AM In reply to

    Re: Injecting Hocks?

     

    I've been spending a lot of time following the equine vets in my area around lately and have seen many many joint injections.  In this area, especially with all the race horses, joint injections are pretty common. 

    Joint injections are great for some horses.  Performance horses tend to need their joints injected more frequently than your average back yard pony.  Horses under average work can last up to a year with joint injections.  I would make sure you thoroughly explore other options first and see if there is something else you can do that would help.  Joint injections can do wonders, but I would try other things first.  I've heard great things about Legend.

     The only problem with joint injections, is that you always run the risk of infecting the joint.  I was out with the vet just the other day to see a standardbred race horse that won't be able to race again because his fetlock joint became infected.  It doesn't happen often, but it can.  It's important that your vet do a very thorough scrub.  The amount of contact time with scrubbing is what is most important. 

     Good luck.

    Meg 

  • 07-03-2008 7:16 AM In reply to

    Re: Injecting Hocks?

    One of my very good friends had her 6 year old mares hocks injected and there was a big improvment in her you could definatley tell by just watching her move qround when someone was riding her.

  • 07-03-2008 5:50 PM In reply to

    Re: Injecting Hocks?

     Will it make a difference? Absolutely.  But IMO, joint injections should be a LAST resort.  My vet (and our farm's trainer) wanted to do the same thing -- my gelding's hocks suffer minor arthritis in the winter.  I said no for several reasons.

    -every time you push a needle into a joint, you risk infection.  And joint infections are nasty and can well be fatal.  Yes, vets do many of them successfully, I'm not saying they don't.  But the risk is always there and unless my horse is positively crippled and that is my last option, I am not willing to take that risk as he is relatively young (12).

    -there are a host of other options that are less invasive available to treat joint stiffness and function, including feed throughs and IM injections.  I use a combination of a good feed-through from SmartPak and Adequan IM.  Both are simple and safe, as well as effective -- they keep Solo happy and moving great and successfully eventing!  :-)

    -I just never agree with the rationale that you should jump right into the most aggressive treatment for anything.  Both for the above reasons AND because if it doesn't work the way you want, then what?  You have nowhere else to go. 

     I've heard a lot of trainers who want to go straight to the hock injections -- and it's because it's a quick fix.  Results are usually almost instantaneous and are dramatic -- horse is moving great and ready to push on to the next show or whatever.  But you can't inject a joint forever -- eventually, you are going to get calcification around the injection site and you won't be able to get a needle in.  If the horse is 20, that's fine.  If the horse is 9, NOT acceptable to me!  It seems to be similar to the rationale for many things in the horse world:  as long as I see results now, it's great and I'm not going to worry about the long term.  So, I just can't agree with that -- I am much more interested in the long term health of my horse than a quick fix that will make things look good for now. 



    Solaris -- 16 hh Appendix Quarter Horse = MY DREAM COME TRUE!
  • 07-03-2008 6:21 PM In reply to

    Re: Injecting Hocks?

    I would agree with the others (Solaris, Boosiler and QH) about doing some reaserch first and have a frank talk with your vet to first rule out other options. We've had a few horses at the farm injected, with varying results. I know my vet much prefers a horse being on suppliments first before injecting. Sometimes just the extra MSM or glucosamine suppliment is enough to help the body create more joint lubrication so you avoid the whole injection thing.

    I read an article on joint injections in my Horse Illustrated February 2006 magazine and found it was a very good read:

     

    Getting the Point of Joint Injections

    Top veterinarians share opinions on the risk and rewards of joint injections.

    -by Amber Heintzberger

     

    Galloping down a cross-country course, leaping three-foot fences or sliding to a stop puts an enormous amount of stress on fine, delicately built equine legs. But there is a lot going on behind the scenes. A sound horse maintains balanced joint function. But joints that bend and give to absorb that shock are comprised of structures - bones, cartilage, soft tissues, protective synovial fluid - that can all break down. Horse owners seek out both oral supplements and systemic injections, which are popular defenses against joint problems. But sometimes therapy goes beyond these approaches and directly into the joint itself.

                It's a relief to know that there are options available to help your horse, but intra-articular joint injection can be costly, and there are risks. Thomas M. Daniel, DVM, of Southern Pines Equine Associates in Southern Pines, N.C., concentrates on sporthorse medicine and was a veterinarian for the U.S. Equestrian Team in 2000. He says, "Some vets overplay the difficulty or danger involved with joint injections; [the procedure] is not without potential downfalls, but it can help horses a lot."

                To Inject or Not to Inject

                Talk to your veterinarian about your horse's soundness and performance issues to determine whether joint injections will be beneficial. Bill Moyer, DVM, head of the Large Animal Department at Texas A&M University, has been practicing veterinary medicine for more than 30 years. Along with Jim Schumacher, DVM, of the University of Tennessee, he co-authored A Guide to Equine Joint Injections (Veterinary Learning Systems Co., 2002). "Athletes seldom have just one thing wrong. Often we are looking at changes in the hocks, a sore back, some navicular changes and maybe the feet are in bad shape. In performance horses, there's just a lot of wear and tear," Dr. Moyer says.

                Many things can go wrong in an equine joint, but one of the most common problems is arthritis, or degenerative joint disease, which leads to progressive destruction of joint structures. There is no cure for this disease, but managing it starts with a veterinary lameness exam to confirm diagnosis. Simple flexion tests, diagnostic nerve blocks and radiographs (X-rays) to evaluate bony changes are all used during the exam. MRI technology is also available, which gives veterinarians a good look at both bone and soft tissues, but the cost is prohibitive for the majority of horse owners.

                Dr. Moyer says the most common joints to inject include the hock, pastern, coffin joint, fetlock, carpal (knee) and stifle joints. Keep in mind that some joints (knee, stifle and hock) are complex joints made up of more than one joint (for example, the hock has four joints).

                Dr. Moyer continues, "Treating joints, the first thing that you need is a diagnosis to know what you are attempting to treat. If you have a swollen knee and it has a chip of fracture, and you inject it and the horse feels better, then you can end up doing more damage." According to Dr. Moyer, some questions horse owners should ask themselves after talking to the veterinarians are, "Do I understand the damage in the joint?"

                Dr. Moyer points out that he has three things to think about with each case:

    • 1) Is the horse lame?
    • 2) Can the problem be treated, or should the horse be retired>
    • 3) Is the owner willing and able to pay for the treatment?

     

                Early signs of joint disease can be subtle, so owners must carefully monitor their horses for signs of joint swelling, heat, lameness or reduced ability to perform. Sometimes, by the time symptoms are noticed, damage may have already started.

                Just as with people, in some cases the joints are simply beyond repair, and a career change may be necessary. For instance, a 20-year-old show jumper or eventer may need to compete only at the lower levels, over smaller fences.

     

                What Are They Putting in There?

                Acting similarly to the grease around ball bearings, joints are lubricated via synovial fluid. It is normally clear, pale yellow and viscous; in the face of joint damage it tends to lose viscosity - it becomes watery and is not as efficient.

                "For therapeutic reasons, joints that have experienced wear and tear can be injected with a variety of medications that help them heal and remain flexible. This can prolong the usefulness of the horse," Dr. Moyer says. There is a long list of possible medications to inject; what is used depends on the diagnosis.

                In cases of arthritic changes, corticosteroids can offer pain relief and reduced inflammation. "Injecting [corticosteroids] directly into the joints as opposed to intravenously, or systemically, is much more profound," Dr. Moyer says.

                He explains that in the joint, inflammation can release all sorts of substances that can damage the cartilage and joint capsule. "In some cases, decreasing inflammation has a long-term beneficial effect because inflammation itself can be damaging. That's why it is important to look at what is going on in the joint before you inject it."

                There are options for steroids, some long-acting, some short-acting. Short-acting steroids provide results that are likely to be seen in about 12 hours rather than a couple of weeks. Dr. Moyer says that long-acting steroids work similarly to time-release drugs in humans, providing relief over an extended period of time.

                Dr. Daniel warns, "The downside is that sometimes people overuse steroids. They can be extremely beneficial is used properly, but they can be detrimental if used improperly. They are often misunderstood - it's not that your horse will never be the same again because you have put steroids in a joint."

                Sodium hyaluronate, often called hyaluronic acid (HA), helps restore the function of the naturally occurring hyaluronic acid within the joint to improve the lubrication, stimulate natural production of HA and generally improve the synovial fluid. Injectable forms of varying molecular weights exist and have been demonstrated to have a positive effect in reducing the pain of arthritis. Also, HA is often used in conjunction with steroids. Oral forms of HA are also available on the consumer market, but their effectiveness is still being researched.

                Adequan I.A. (polysulfated glycosaminoglycan) is an additional option, available for the treatment of non-infective joint disease in the carpal (knee) joint.

     

                Risks

                Joint injections are not without risk, including:

                            Infection

                            Any time you insert a needle into the body there is the potential to introduce bacteria, which can lead to infection. With proper handling and technique, and thorough preparation of the limb, the risk of infection can be minimized to a large degree. Yet even under the best of conditions, there is always some risk of infection following a joint injection. Symptoms of infection include heat, swelling and tenderness around the joint, and a reluctance to use the joint normally. Despite prompt treatment with antibiotics, once a joint infection is established, extensive destruction of the articular cartilage may still occur, resulting in debilitating lameness or permanent lose of use. If you have an infection there can be some time delay, and the onset of symptoms can be rapid and sever. Contact your veterinarian immediately if your horse shows any signs of infection.

                            Masking pain

                            Injecting corticosteroids into a damaged joint can help reduce inflammation and relieve pain, but then the joint is more at risk for re-injury when the horse returns to work.

     

                            Broken needle

                            In very rare instances, a needle can break. Though it sounds horrendous, the chances of this happening are slim. Dr. Moyer explains that this used to be a more common occurrence when needles were made of stainless steel and were brittle. Now they are made of alloys and are more flexible, thus less likely to break. "It's been years since I've heard of it, but the potential is always there, so we have to mention it," he says.

     

                            Adverse Reaction to the Chemicals

                            Rarely, some horses react adversely to medication, the same way some people react to a flu shot. Any adverse reaction should be treated as an emergency.

     

                            Joint Degeneration

                            There is a long-term risk of corticosteroids causing cartilage breakdown. This depends on the individual horse: how much damage there was to begin with and how much joint stress the horse will continue to endure.

     

                            Laminitis

                            While corticosteroids are very useful in treating joint disease, some vets think that in certain instances steroids, especially trimacinolone, can contribute to the onset of laminitis or founder. Sticking to a small dose and regular schedule, and using steroids only when truly necessary, should help reduce this possible risk.

     

                            Lay-Up

                            Following an injection, a return to work depends on the joint involved. "The ivory tower approach is extended lay-up, but we don't find that necessary," Dr. Daniel says. "Nobody is wrong here, but we give the horses 24 hours of stall rest and the two to three days of turnout, then they can start light flat work. We are often dealing with horses that can't take extended time off. That has forced our hand at minimal lay-up, but it seems to work well."

                Often, older horses have a lot of lumps and bumps to show for their years. If a joint has been swollen for a long time, the vet will need to remove the fluid, inject the joint, and then the horse will probably need a couple of week off.

     

                Take Home Message

                While not for every horse, and not without risk, joint therapy can be a tool for prolonging your horse's athletic usefulness. But Dr. Moyer warns that he never uses therapeutic joint injections as a preventive measure where there is no existing problem. "I won't be sticking needles into [a joint] because it might have a problem," he says. "Every time someone sticks a needle into a joint, there is a risk."

                Success with joint injections has many variables. Everyone has different goals: One owner may be happy if a horse can walk across the paddock comfortably, while another will rate success by how an athlete can perform. "One of the things you have to ask yourself is, "How and I defining success?" Dr. Moyer points out. "Was your horse lame and now he isn't? Was he lame and then sound, and then even worse than ever? The result is going to vary with the severity of the problem and what is being expected of the horse. Dressage is more forgiving than steeplechasing, for example." In the end, each individual responds differently to the various treatments, so tailoring a program to each horse is essential to success.



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  • 07-04-2008 6:15 AM In reply to

    Re: Injecting Hocks?

     

    Thanks for the article very useful reading. It is good getting all your guys's thoughts, I am going to go to the vet with a very open mind and listen to what he has to say. I definately would like the hock injections as the last resort. We will see. Fingers crossed its nothing serious. I can live with feeding supplements thats for sure.
    Wolfy&Victor


    "No Hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle"- Winston Churchhill

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