Baby Thoughts?
Last post 06-13-2008 8:24 PM by CheyAut. 27 replies.
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02-06-2008 1:37 PM
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I know its early yet, but I've had some thoughts of breeding our Mare. Her name is Penny, she is somewhere between the ages of 13 & 40. We rescued her in July. She was looking like the glue factory queen. Our vet checked her out, gave her shots etc. Suggested we put 150 lbs on her. ( you could count the bones in her spine).
She looks wonderful now a nice coat and a gleam in her eye. I have scouted out a suiter, Our trainer has a QH that is similar in size to Penny. Neither horse has papers. The stallion is very dark. not quite black but close. Penny is chestnut ( very copper colored). My concern is that the stallion is in his late 20's. He last fathered 2 yrs ago, a set of twins. Can he be too old?
I figured I would document her heat cycle so I would know when she would be in heat come May. But its Feb & no funny behavior yet maybe its a little early?
Any thoughts or suggestions would be great appreciated
Thanks
JAne
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SpottedPony_horse
  - Joined on 08-03-2005
- Western Pennsylvania
- Ground Training
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I'd say no. You don't know how old she is, she isn't registered and she may still have health problems from being starved that may interfere with her ability to become pregnant and maintain the pregnancy. The stallion may or may not be able to settle her. Also not being registered is another strike against this breeding.
It seems that the bottom has dropped out of the horse market with the close of slaughter houses, so you may be able to get a fairly nice foal or yearling at a good price instead of breeding for yourself.
Spotted Pony
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She may be registered - no way of knowing we are her third owner as far as I know. Her coggins was no help nor the vet that signed it. I called, it stated her age was 12. Vet though more like 18, farrier thought 20+ So go figure.
Our other horse is also a rescue he was tied up in a junkyard. burn marks on both back hocks from the rope. He was a stallion at the time his owner gave us his papers ( doc bar family) but he is very small. maybe 13 hands, 4 yrs old. He is now a gelding as our vet thought he was not to standard.
Maybe I should have left him with his parts.
Jane
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journeygirl
  - Joined on 12-29-2006
- Competitor
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 quarterhorsetimestwo:
She may be registered - no way of knowing we are her third owner as far as I know. Her coggins was no help nor the vet that signed it. I called, it stated her age was 12. Vet though more like 18, farrier thought 20+ So go figure.
Our other horse is also a rescue he was tied up in a junkyard. burn marks on both back hocks from the rope. He was a stallion at the time his owner gave us his papers ( doc bar family) but he is very small. maybe 13 hands, 4 yrs old. He is now a gelding as our vet thought he was not to standard.
Maybe I should have left him with his parts.
Jane
Yeah for the vet. Just because the horse has papers doesn't mean it's breeding quality. With the market like it is right now, unless you have the money IN THE BANK to care for this mare and baby untill they both die then DO NOT BREED HER!
Case in point, go to this website, and scroll down till you find the post from Januarary 31 and read it. http://www.fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/
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I had no plans to sell anyone!!!. Maybe i have taken your comments the wrong way. I dont take on more than I can chew financially. Our two horses have the best care and love by vet and owner. I understand the current market & also understand your feelings in regards to another rescue. Folks here in SW GA dont think of their horses, cows livestock etc as children, but I do.
The purpose of my question was if I do decide to breed her what should be the steps to take.
Thanks
Jane
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You don't breed her. If you must have a baby, you go to the local auction and buy a grade baby for similar quality for 25$, which is not an unusual price at an auction right now. It will cost you substantially more than that to breed the mare, IF you provide it and the mare with the proper vet care, even if the stud fee is free. The fact that you 'want a baby horse' is not justification to put one more horse into the world, in a situation where there is a huge surplus of unwanted horses. Having a pretty coat and nice eyes does not qualify a horse as a broodmare. And having a baby IS a risk to the health of the mare, period. I don't understand how you have estimated her age between 14 and 40. Have you had a vet look at her? If so, they can give you an approximate age for the horse that doesn't span 3 decades. Twins occur because of the mare, not the stallion.
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countrymouse
  - Joined on 10-10-2006
- Eastern Ontario, Canada
- Horse of the Year
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"The purpose of my question was if I do decide to breed her what should be the steps to take" OK - I agree with the others that you should NOT breed your mare, BUT to try to answer your question ...... before you decide IF you will breed, here are some things to consider - Is she a maiden mare? If Yes, then why at her age (whatever that may be) has she never been bred? Are there health issues that warrant her not getting or staying pregnant?
If she has been bred, did she settle easily? How many times has she been pregnant and/or given birth? Was she healthy throughout her pregnancy(ies)? Has she ever failed to carry to full term? Has she ever had a stillborn foal? Has she ever had problems with lactation or rejection of a foal? Has she had or will she need Caslick repair? There are many more questions to ask to prepare for the 'idea' of breeding your mare - perhaps you could do some reading .... I can recommend Understanding the Broodmare by Christine M. Schweizer, DVM. IF you decide to breed, will it be live cover or AI? If you & the stallion owner choose live cover, are you prepared for the possibility of your mare or the stallion being injured? Who would be responsible? Also if the stallion owner doesn't request a swab test from your mare, then you should seriously NOT use the services of that stallion (since it probably means he did not ask from swab tests from other mares that his stallion serviced) -- you could be putting your mare at risk of infection. If you choose AI, are you prepared for the additional vet costs entailed - palpation, ultrasound, etc. And speaking of vet costs, are you prepared for the extra costs there - pre-pregnancy check-up, post-breeding check-up, settled mare check-up, additional vaccines required to keep mare & foal safe & healthy. Breeding your mare is not an idea to enter into lightly - you rescued her - why do you now want to jeopardize her?
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Buy a foal instead. I bred my last mare and it is a lot of work and money. Buy a foal and get what you really want.
Plus you don't know the age of the mare.
Neither are papered.
And you do not want Twins.
There are too many foals out there to bother making another one
** I want to add I bred a high quality mare with a high Quality Stallion. I made sure no health issues or gen. issues. When the foal was born we had a medical issue and he had to be rushed to the vet hospital. This one night in the vet hospital was over $1,300. He is not healthy and happy, but it cost me...**
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NO!
1) You've got to be able to age that mare better than that 13 to 40?!?!? 13 is ok for a maiden, but 20+ may not be, especially not one that is recovering from abuse and neglect. Birthing and raising takes a LOT out of a mare and she needs to be healthy and keeping weight on more than well before even considering it. It's also extremely dangerous and the older the mare the worse it is, especially if they are maiden.
2) NEITHER are registered?!? So you are breeding unknown stock to unknown stock. For what purpose? To what end? What's the goal? What makes these horses such OUTSTANDING examples of their breed (that neither of them have) and discipline that they should pass on their genes? Any idea of the genetic history of the horses, their parents? Are they likely to both carry genes for undesirable traits that are perhaps hidden, dormant, or only minorly expressed in the individuals?
3) The horse population is far too large, the market horrible, etc. Even if you "plan" on keeping this foal for life you are contributing to a horrible overpopulation of horses, and to what end? If you want a foal why not go buy one that is already on the ground, you know what you are getting, and it's a LOT cheaper (and you are guarenteed a healthy live foal and mom). Again, what's so great about your mare and this stallion that their genes should be passed on?
4) Can you afford the vet care (even if the stud fee is free?). You are talking HIGH hundreds if not THOUSANDS in prenatal and postnatal care on a HEALTHY foal and mare. What if something goes wrong? Can you afford it? Can you afford to take the baby to a university for treatement/specialized care should he come out sickly?? I used to board at a breeding barn; even with all of the best prenatal care we could give you'd be surprised how many had some problem in their first few months wether it was contracted tendons, colds, strangles, etc.... It gets expensive FAST!
You said yourself that the mare was "looking like the glue factory queen". This does NOT bode well for either her HEALTH and ABILITY to carry a foal to term and then nurse the foal and keep them both healthy OR the reasoning to breed her at all. Moreso her and the foal's health!!
You RESCUED this horse. Why do you want to put her through the stress and risk of having a foal while she is still recovering from neglect and malnutrition? Can she even take it or will she be giving all the nutrition she needs to continue recuperating straight to the foal??
Just because a mare has the organs does not mean they should be used and most stallions would make darn nice geldings.
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quarterhorsetimestwo: I had no plans to sell anyone!!!. Maybe i have taken your comments the wrong way. I dont take on more than I can chew financially. Our two horses have the best care and love by vet and owner. I understand the current market & also understand your feelings in regards to another rescue. Folks here in SW GA dont think of their horses, cows livestock etc as children, but I do. The purpose of my question was if I do decide to breed her what should be the steps to take. Thanks Jane
I lived my entire life up until now in the state of Ga. This is a gross generalization and utterly false. AND it still does not justify the irresponsibility (to your mare, the foal, the environment, the horse industry, etc) and selfishness involved in breeding an unregistered, recovering, rescue mare of unknown age to an unregistered stallion that should have been a gelding 20yrs ago.
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quarterhorsetimestwo: He is now a gelding as our vet thought he was not to standard. Maybe I should have left him with his parts. Jane
Why? So you could breed other "not to standard" foals, risk your horses' lives, and end up spending more than you would for a healthy, registered, happy foal from nice parents of known origin?
I don't get it, but I'm glad you listened to your vet at least the first time.
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monster_crossing
  - Joined on 03-24-2008
- Foal
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I'm new here, but I've been reading for years. I joined a few years ago and got busy and didn't really do anything with it.
Being unsure of her age, I wouldn't breed her. There can be long lasting effects from being starved that would make being pregnant and giving birth difficult for her. As far as being registered goes, I have horses that are and that are not. I don't really give papers a thought unless I know the horse will be showing. Since we don't show it really makes no difference to me if a horse is papered or not as long as it is sound and healthy. It would be hard for anybody to pick out which of my horses have papers and which don't.
I would just keep her, love her and enjoy her. It sounds like you're already doing that and that's what she needs the most of!
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No a 'registered' horse does not make a 'good' horse. However, 'registered' does give you a history, a lineage, a genetic history, etc. Big benefits for determining the compatibility of potential suiters and ruling out (or in) genetic predispositions and problems when breeding. There are a lot of 'good' horses I would never consider breeding, and a lot of 'crappy' registered horses that I would never consider breeding either...
I've only ever owned mutt dogs from the pound (or similar) because my dogs are house pets that need to do nothing more than lay on the couch, look cute, and lick my face. They are GREAT dogs. That does NOT mean they should be bred or that I agree with breeding them. Similarly some unregistered horses are GREAT horses, even great competitors, that doesn't necessarily mean they should be bred.
Registration also increases the marketability of the foal. Yes, that's a good thing even if you don't 'plan' on ever ever selling the foal. There are tons of horses, the market is flooded, and prices have plummeted. It sucks, and I'm not talking about being 'greedy' and getting money out of the foal/horse; I'm talking about ease of selling to a good, safe, happy, home with experienced horse people. No, I'm not saying that unregistered foals all get bad homes or that "good" horse people only buy registered; it just helps swing the probability in the horse's favor should life, as it always seems to do, throws you a bad hand and you find yourself against a wall.
I could continue, but basically it's part of many, many things that should be weighed when considering breeding vs. purchasing.
Would I breed for a foal that couldn't be registered? Frankly it's not likely, but it IS possible, there are other things to be considered. First and foremost I'd want to breed for a foal that had every chance I could give it of being healthy, happy, and excelling. That means considering the genetic past of both parents, their conformation strengths and weaknesses and how they compliment each other. It means picking parents that have DEMONSTRATED that they can excel at their chosen path in life and whose chosen paths are compatible to each other and what I realistically want out of the foal. That's a huge thing in my book. If the parents haven't made it clear that they excel at what you want the foal to do how, with all the genetic dice rolling, do you expect the foal to excel at it? Stack the deck in your favor whenever possible using all means possible!
If my *carefully* considered desires and plans were to have the absolute best trail/ranch horse I've ever ridden and I've carefully, and unemotionally analyzed my mare's abilities in that area and *carefully* chosen a stallion that has proven he excels at that and compliments my mare's abilities then that is fine. This isn't about 'registered' snobbery or 'world show class/olympic pedigree' snobbery. It's about doing careful research, being HONEST with yourself about your mare, choosing the right stud, really knowing what you want/the risks/the costs/etc, and stacking as many of the odds as you can in favor of you AND the foal.
Breeding a rescue mare to a 20yr old stallion that just so happens to be down the road, where the best/only attributes listed are their colors and no obvious thought has been put into either horse's visible faults much less the possible invisible faults or the end goal for the foal or how attainable that is, is NOT careful planning with the foal's and mare's best interests in mind regardless of wether or not said horses happen to be registered or not. The unregistered problem is only one of many many issues I find with this "plan", though yes, IMO it is an issue (maybe not an insurmountable one given the right horses and circumstances, but an issue).
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