What are legitimiate reasons you would use a slow twist snaffle versus a regular smooth snaffle?   How about a square snaffle or a full twist snaffle?  Thanks.

like everything else I would imagine it would depend on the horse, since the slow twist would be considered more severe than the smooth. 

 I personally don't like a bit to have anything but a smooth surface.  To do otherwise just adds edges that cause the horse discomfort.  If someone pinned me to the ground and held a gun to my head and MADE me use one because a horse was unresponsible to a plain snaffle and training issues associated with that had already been addressed, then I would use it only for a time or two or three just to say "hullo, pay attention please" and then switch back.

Any bit that you use full time, if your horse is ignoring the bit, they WILL find a way around, no matter how severe.  Not to say the same bit works for every horse, because it simply doesn't, but instead that there IS merit in using a more emphatic bit for a ride or two to show a horse what you are asking for, but that first you need to make sure (and not just in your own mind) that the correct training is in place first.  I'm not saying this very well, but I hope you can decipher.

 Generally, any bit with an edge to it, whether it be a twist or a square snaffle would be used if a horse tends to lean on the bit, or try to pull through it.  People will use these bits because it is a quick way to get the horse to stop pulling, instead of training the horse to not pull.  I think what Solaris was trying to say was that they really should be used as a temporary training tool, not as a solution to the problem.  Yes, they are good to wake a horse up and teach him to stop/not pull, but then you need to go back to the root of the problem, and get it so the horse will respond the same way to a smooth snaffle.

It sounds like the slow twist snaffle is going to be used to get the horse to pay attention to you--since not stopping or pulling on the bit actually is a case of the horse not paying attention to the rider--but there is no need to use a harsher bit to get her attention. Instead of using force to get your point across--get the horse's attention--a simpler and kinder method would be just asking the horse to do things. Ask for turns--on the forehand, on the haunches--ask for transitions upward and downward from gait to gait, even transitions within a gait, do halts, do rein-backs. Don't stay with one exercise for any amount of time, but change them often. With rapid-fire requests of the horse she learns that she has to pay attention to you.

 There is no reason to ever use anything but a plain snaffle. 

If the horse has correct training then he will be responsive to your aids alone. He won't need anything harsh.

 If he's just hot then either increase his work load or decrease the fast burning energy in his diet.

xrde2lve_lve2rdex:

 There is no reason to ever use anything but a plain snaffle. 

 

Although I am an advocate in "less is more" I completely disagree with this statement. 

Some horses just plain don't like or respond to the nutcracker action of a snaffle and prefer the curb action of a kimberwicke.  Some horses hate a bit in their mouth at all and do best in a sidepull or hackamore.  Some horses just get very excited or very bullheaded -- ever try to convince a horse at full speed locked onto a XC jump to rebalance when he'd rather crash right on through? -- and need a little extra "hey, I'm still up here!" action from the rider.  

Things can often seem that simple or black and white xrde, when you are young and your opinions have yet to be shaped by a couple decades of exposure to all types of horses.  But I encourage everyone to not simply throw out the baby with the bathwater -- many tools can be very valuable when used thoughtfully and knowledgeably, the hard part is learning which ones and when to apply!

While it would be nice if we could ride every horse in a plain snaffle, I don't think that's reality. I have ridden some hot, strong horses (one of them was a Belgian WB and I swear his head weighed 1,000 pounds) and had to experiment with many different kinds of bits - Waterfords, 3-ring elevators, Kimberwickes, etc. Obviously, like others have noted, making sure the horse respects you and your aids is paramount, and you want to go with the most gentle bit possible. 

At the risk of getting in a pissing match, I still say that a harsher bit is never the answer. Yes, in knowledgeable hands even a curb can be soft, but if those "good hands" get in a bind they will still use the pain factor built into the curb for leverage. And if they never go that far when they're in a bind, why not use the snaffle--or side-pull or bosal--from the beginning? A harsher bit is not necessary, for any horse, if BOTH the horse and the rider are in tune with each other. A harsher bit is nothing but a short cut. Some would say that a small rider on a huge horse needs some leverage, but again, you shouldn't need to resort to strength to get the horse's attention. Look at Debbie McDonald and Brentina. Debbie looks like a shrimp on that huge mare, but you never see Debbie pulling on her. I agree, Brentina is ridden in a double bridle in competition, but I've seen her being schooled in a snaffle.

I certainly don't believe that the horse should be a slave to its rider, and I agree that the "strongest" bits should only be used by certain individuals, in the correct manner. And of course I believe that you should explore all other avenues, seek the advice of a trainer, etc. I was simply stating that not every horse can be ridden effectively in a plain, smooth snaffle, especially not in every situation. Maybe you have different bits for different scenarios - like Margie Engle, for example, who prefers to always school her horse in some type of snaffle and reserves her stronger bits (like 3-ring elevators) for competition.

 I agree, Frizz -- we are not "enslaving" horses by using a different bit on them.  And yes, it IS all about educated hands.  A friend's horse for example:  he is a Belgian X and he is FREAKING STRONG!  Now you can spend all the time you want putting a snaffle on this horse and he will be quite happy to rip the reins out of your hands, or duck behind it and spin in circles no matter how much groundwork you want to do.  But put a Kimberwicke on him and you can ride him soft and happy all day long without even using that curb chain a single time.  But put that snaffle back in and right away he knows it and will take 110% advantage of it.  You can tell me that's not logical, and I would agree, but we've tried it and a bunch of other things with him and it's just what he likes.

Some people think thin snaffles are severe and every horse should be in a nice fat snaffle.  Well, my horse has a low palate and if you put a fat snaffle in, he is very uncomfortable.  So we go for the thinner mouth piece and voila, happy horse.  They are individuals and training methods and tools should reflect that.

Just like you can't make every person in the world wear the same shaped shoes, you can put every horse in the world in the same bit. 

Debbie McDonald used a double bridle on Brentina b/c the rules of Grand Prix dressage require it. I suspect that Debbie would have ridden Brentina in a snaffle if she could have, since that's what she schooled the mare in. Margie Engle uses an elevator to get a quick turn out of her horse using leverage--pain--while on a tight course in competition. Big difference. 

 Actually, no, an elevator does not use pain to deliver a turn.  In fact, it does not improve turning ability whatsoever.  I actually find that it is LESS useful to use for direct reining turns because of the large cheek piece.  But when I am jumping a course -- and even more so for Margie Engle, who is aeons ahead of me in riding skill -- most of the turning is done with the legs, weight, and eye.  The elevator uses leverage -- which no, does NOT equal pain because believe me, if it was pain, my horse would NOT tolerate it and my butt would be on the ground -- to help rebalance a horse off his forehand with a lifting half halt.  I do all my schooling in a snaffle as well -- everything from dressage to XC jumping.  But at comps, you bet I put that elevator in when jumping so when my horse is on his competition high, I can use a light touch and get him back in balance for the next jump WITHOUT ripping his face off or causing pain when he is distracted or off balance at high speeds.

Yes an elevator uses leverage, but that doesn't necessarily equal pain. Of course, if abused/in the wrong hands, an elevator (as well as many other bits) can be too severe, but this is the exception, not the rule. (For example, I have seen someone jumping a horse in a 3-ring with draw reins, which were cranked down...ridiculous). Have you seen Margie versus the horses she rides? Those are huge, hot, powerful jumpers, and Margie is a tiny little mighty mouse. Are you saying that you think she is using a too harsh/severe bit? Because I certainly do not agree with that. Like you said, I don't want to get in a war about this, but I don't think Margie Engle's reputation deserves to be tarnished.

As lots have said before, different bits for different situations, always striving for the mildest bit possible.

Eons ago I rescued an 18 year old starvation case. The mare was a nicely bred T-bred who had come off the track and went right to the broodmare biz. I don't think she'd ever been "reprogrammed" to be a riding horse. Years later, she was in a bad situation and I got her. Spent a year building her back up and then lots of light work on the lunge line and bitting rig. She was extremely mannerly as far as anything you wanted to do with her on the ground, in the trailer, etc.  but once in the saddle? This old mare became a charging, pig-rootin' fool! We had started her back in a nice fat eggbutt snaffle. After the first month of this with her locking completely on and tearing around like a maniac, totally out of control my trainer and I tried a gag snaffle. That helped get her attention back. Then on to a full cheek copper corkscrew. After about 6 months in each new bit, she was back in that original eggbutt and as nice as could be, to the point that we could actually do some little schooling shows and place!

There are no real quick fixes and what works for some may not work for another. Just use some good judgement, light hands and experiment!