I am posting this because I would LOVE some opinion on what to do to get my boys more soft on the mouth, (off my hands) and to drive with their hind end, and round out (collect).
My arabian I've shown western on and off with, and my paint is just three so he's pretty much being started. ( theres a story behind that, I will explain below.)

Ok. We'll start with tino :)
He's getting better at collecting but still tends to be front end oriented, I also tend to be heavy handed, and pick to much so any tips on helping me stop, I'd also appreciate! hehe ^^'
I want to do more reining and western pleasure work, he has shown a lot of promice in both, and the last show I went to we excelled in western, in fact took 1st of 10 and he was the only horse 6 or under in the whole class. But I feel he could be more supple. I've taken him back to a snaffle, for now its a twisted wire as I wasn't getting a response out of a plain loose ring. I don't generally like to use bits like that, but I'd personally rather be softer on his mouth and have him notice it, than me constantly pulling and it not phasing him at all... So, if anyone belives this is an ok bit for what I'm trying to accomplish let me know, if not I'm open to suggestions. When I show western, its in a grazing curb, no tall port, no long shanks and he generally works in it fine, except since we've been gaming all summer, we've got a little work to do to get back into pleasure mode. Moving forward- the result I'd like is to have him more supple to the bit, when I sit and ask a 'woa' or an 'easy' to feel him respond with light mouth cues. he is good off leg, but sometimes when I use leg, he takes it as if I'm asking him to speed up instead of just yeild, so thats an issue.. Which I think is part of why I'm a little heavy handed, because I feel like if I loosen too much he'll speed up.Most of the time is not the case, but I'm used to him doing it, so its a bad habit of mine as well.  Also getting them to gather underneath themselves at a woa. this is what I'd like from him :)   * I know I'm a mouthfull... *

And Sparky...
Sparky was just halter broke when we got him. I did months of ground work, sacking out, lunging, bitting up, saddling, bathing, driving with him before I rode him. I started him about 4 months after we got him. he did wonderful, was soft on the mouth (used a eggbutt snaffle) light on leg cues, and responded awesome. The condition we got him in was that Darrens little brother got to use him in 4-h and take him to fair one year and then he was all ours... Well ok... except that ment neither my fiance nor I could ride him from april 13th to june 24th (after 4-h fair). In that time he was coached by the mother in-law and trained her way.. ( not my preferable way to go..) Even though he was great for me with no aids.. she's not made him dependant on spurs, and a martingale which I never needed. So I'm weaning him off of them, I've got him to be better with no spurs, but he's just not the same supple colt that I started. So with him, I'd like the same, to see a softer mouth, more giving to pressure, and a more rounded lope, (which I'm sure will come with collection but for now he tend to strech his legs out pretty far when he lopes) Also he's now being ridden in a snaffle that has copper rollers on it. like this picture but loose o ring.


My theory is If you don't need aids (crops, spurs, draw reins) then don't use them... HER (the in law)'s theory is, Use the aid before they get the bad habit and need it... so, there's my issue :)

Like I said, I can tend to be a tad heavy on the mouth so I am trying very hard not to, but I have a lot of patience and will take the time to do something right if it means a better horse with more solid skills.  

thanks to any and all who reply! like I said I'm open minded and your opinion matters to me :)

Okay, what you need to do to get your horses soft and supple and rounded is 1st, you need to work on flexing exercises. Clinton Anderson has some articles on his website explaining the training process to get them to do it. Personally, what I had to do to get my mare to stop spinning around in circles and just stand still and flex from side to side was to go right up next to the fence. To bend to the right, have the fence on your left. A lot of people think that he's too harsh in his training methods. I personally don't think so. I think that at least the concept he explains is to be firm, but kind, and to get the horse focused on being respectful to you.

Back to the flexing. Start with the side to side, and get him to do it from a stand still all the way up to a lope. Then start with the 'vertical flexion.' This is flexing at the poll. What I did to teach my mare this was to get her going forward, ask her to bend her nose towards me, when she did it, hold it for a few seconds, then let her go. Letting them go is their reward, get it? Then I found CA's method. Either way would work. Again, try it from a stand still all the way to a walk. I try to keep this cue to flex at the poll separate from teh cue to put her head down. Which, using a shank bit, is to pick up on the reins and bump gently. At first they'll pick their heads up, and the higher they go the harder you bump, and the instant they put their head down, even the slightest bit, you let go. This is also a good soft-mouth exercise.

Once he knows flexing, start playing with it. A circle here, a circle there, back a few circles here and there. Keep in mind anything that flexes him will help him soften. I don't think a hard mouth has really anything to do with it as that the horse is either stiff or he just doesn't want to do what you want. There are horses with more SENSITIVE mouths, like some people who don't like to bite into cold things while other people can, but that's something different. Since you want him to do reining and western pleasure, it's important that he keeps his head in and his nose tipped toward his chest, just don't overdo it.

Now to get your horse off it's front end, here's what you can do: get him going forward, go a few steps, then stop and back him up. Do this for awhile, but be careful not to stop in the same place to many times in a row, cause then they'll start to anticipate.

NOW you can start getting your horse to round up his back (collection).  Take the vertical flexion (be warned you're going to use your feet for this too) get your horse going forward at the walk, and while you're walking, ask him to do it. AT THE SAME TIME GENTLY bump him in the belly with your heels. You don't have to use your spurs.You will feel him round up. You'll know because his head will be low and rounded and he'll have an even pace. If you need to get an experienced person to watch. He can tell you when he's rounded and eventually you'll get to where you can feel it.

I hope this helps. Good luck! It's pretty cool that a young horse beat all the older ones, LOL!

Mae